A good friend sent me an interesting read from Cliff B., who talks about modern day AA and the changes that are going on in the the AA program. It is a pretty good read and I would urge everyone here to check it out (even if that means skipping the rest of this post).
Cliff seems to be arguing that the treatment industry has had a detrimental effect on modern day AA, and that because so many people go to rehab and then come to AA, the overall message has been diluted and “muddied.” He also argues that this is not to be blamed on the treatment industry (as they are doing the best they can, he says), but instead it should be blamed on early AA and the fact that they did not respond to this “threat” when the treatment industry started filtering into AA meetings.
I think there is a lot of good that can come from thoroughly exploring this topic. To some extent, the question boils down to “Does AA need to change?” And of course the follow up question to that is always going to be “How?”
But before we even try to tackle those questions, let’s take a look at some of the key discussion points surrounding this:
* Some argue that the influx of court mandated people who are “sentenced” to AA are diluting the message and skewing the success rates of AA. Interestingly, however, there is some data out there that supports the fact that the same percentage of people stay sober in the short run, at least, regardless of whether they were self motivated or court ordered to AA. This would seem to indicate that the influx of mandated people should not really change the overall success rate of AA as a whole. But, maybe it does.
* Some argue that the success rate of AA is irrelevant, and should not even be considered. Well, thanks for being so selfish! I think AA was founded with the idea of helping more than just one person. If the solution does not scale well then it this does not live up to the vision that Bill Wilson intended. He wanted to help lots of alcoholics, not just one. Success rates are certainly not everything, but neither are they completely irrelevant.
* So, should AA change, or does the treatment industry need to change? You could argue either way I think, depending on your viewpoint:
Treatment centers need to change – You could argue that we need treatment centers to take the initiative and start making huge changes in order to produce different (and better) rates of success. Easy to say but hard to implement. Want a suggestion? How about reverse engineering success: look at those recovering alcoholics who are doing well in recovery, and then build that lifestyle into your daily treatment activities. Instead of lecturing and showing boring videos in rehab, try a radically different approach that is more community based and “hands-on.” Take clients out to real meetings in the real world, have them start working with a sponsor right away, and so on. Move away from the theoretical stuff and get clients involved in real recovery right from the start. And, focus on real recovery actions at the expense of traditional recovery lectures. Just an idea that no doubt would need to be fleshed out quite a bit.
AA needs to change – Cliff B. seems to be arguing that AA needs to change, and that they need to get more strict about how their message is carried in daily AA meetings. Silence the “treatment talk” and maybe even restrict newcomers from speaking at all in order to help purify the message. Letting newcomers dribble on about how their day went or spewing useless recovery cliches is hardly useful. The idea here is to take AA back to a time when their message was more pure and not diluted by side issues.
What do you think? I know some readers here attend AA and I would like to hear what you think about where AA is headed. Also, what do you think AA or the treatment centers should do in order to produce better results for everyone?
Please share your thoughts about this in the comments….
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{ 11 comments… read them below or add one }
I have been sober and actively involved in AA for over 17 years, I state that not to act like I am “somebody” but just to qualify as someone who is active in the fellowship. I felt Cliff B. a few good points, new people can be helped more by listening and getting a contact/sponsor quickly so that they can begin to take the steps into their lives. But his tone reminds me of a Christian Fundamentalist discussing the Bible, and that kind of tone is a problem which AA needs to look address. I attended a meeting of AA purists early on in my recovery, and anything said in that meeting needed to include a quote from the Big Book and be spoken in a 1930s dialect. People were frequently told off for not speaking correctly and if someone said they had a drug problem they were quickly shown the door. I wouldn’t speak in that meeting, I had been screamed at for much of my life and if they went around the room asking people to speak up I would sit there shaking, scared I wouldn’t sound right and get shouted down and humiliated. I don’t think AA needs that approach. That meeting had very few attendees and I don’t even know if it exists now, so it wasn’t “reaching” very many people. Bill Wilson wrote that “more will be revealed” and I believe it is being revealed, whether AA can get past its own fundamentalist tendencies or whether it more fully embraces them (neglecting many suffering alcoholics in the process) remains to be seen.
Treatment centers need to change also, they often don’t do much of a job preparing their clients for the world of 12 step fellowship and their clients can be hurt that way. I’m sorry, but an attractive young woman should never be sent to an AA “club” under any circumstances. Don’t gloss over that, if being pawed and propositioned at a club could get you sober then women’s recovery rates would be through the roof. They should also be told a little about how to approach AA, and if they get run out of one meeting for talking about drugs to not give up completely. Both treatment centers and AA are equally guilty in not addressing the whole person, it is my belief that most alcoholics and addicts need outside counseling that they can trust. AA is not filled with qualified psychologists and I don’t buy the old AA standby that “we drank because we are drunks”, without addressing many of my underlying issues that I drank at I would be in the grave by now.
I was a client of a long term treatment center when I first got sober and I am glad AA did not reject me for that. I did get very confused between what the treatment center pushed and what was AA, but if I hadn’t been given time to sort all that out I would be dead. I got a feeling that Cliff wants AA to play hero and do away with those pesky treatment centers completely. Well, I am alive because one existed for me and I put a value on my life today, whether Cliff would or not, since I didn’t get sober in his “pure” fashion. My treatment center had issues though, the whole set up kept me in fear and I didn’t progress that much in recovery until I left. I learned there that I needed to parrot what the counselors wanted to hear or I would be taken to task by the “community” and duly humiliated. Many treatment centers use “counselors” that only have a few years recovery time and little education in treatment, this can be problematic when they get a bit of a “ruler” mentality. The use of humiliation and fear shouldn’t be a part of the recovery process, it promotes distrust. The treatment center I lived in for 10 months could inspire a book the experience was so strange, but yet I know that having somewhere to go like that saved my life.
Both AA and treatment centers need to embrace change, and embrace the existence of each other. The enemy is death, not one or the other.
Thank you for your wonderful web site,
Mary in Kentucky
I agree with Mary,
AA fundamentalists and religious fundamentalists suffer from a the same problem.. euphoric recall and a decided inablility to adapt to changing times (read circumstances).
Patrick,
in an earlier article you wrote about success rates and the prospect of inflating them by eliminating participation of probable failures.
That is, in fact, what was done in the “early days” of AA. One couldn’t simply show up at an AA meeting without someone to vouch for them. I am sure that this was the beginning of “Sposorship”.
I hear that if you still had a wristwatch in your possession, you weren’t “ready” yet.
and if AA ran everyone out of meetings who used drugs other than alcohol… that would exclude Bill W and Dr. Bob….. and virtually everyone at the fellowship where I got sober.
The Universal principles contained within the 12 steps are readily accessable to all who honestly seek…. they are transcendent of our percieved differences like religious (or non religious) posture, circumstance, drug of choice, sexuality, age, ethnicity……. ect.
A fact, at least initially, lost on the deified Bill W. himself.
So, is the AA message for the JEWS or the GENTILES ?
Both, of course.
But the keepers of the message are decidedly human and hardly any of them, that I can tell, truly undestands it.
Good intentioned members have only to do the best that they can.
Flawed as we are.
My bad, I didn’t intend to post anonymously :o)
Brett
I see two ways AA can and does go, and I experience them both depending on which meeting I go to. Either it’s too relaxed and people go on and on about their stupid divorce a hundred times and I get to learn about humility, patience, and tolerance. Or I get a bleeding deacon telling me to take my damn problems to my sponsor and bring the solutions to the meetings. Either way, I stick around because if I don’t, I’ll die.
I think the difference is numbers and exposure. I may have been one of the ones in the past that said “who cares about the numbers” – it wasn’t meant to be selfish, it’s simple math. There’s more people going through treatment and AA then ever before, and most of them aren’t seeing AA as the last house on the block. Why do we think the people who have long-term sobriety are around… what do they have in common? I mean heck, let’s make a 100 question survey and send it out to 5,000 recovered alcoholics with 10 or more years of sobriety and come up with a benchmark for recovery. Then incorporate that into the treatment centers. I can tell you right now what they’ll all have in common, it’s the same thing I hear every day in meetings when someone get’s the 1,2,5, 12, 20 year coin. I worked the steps, came to meetings, trusted God, cleaned house, and helped others. Then there’s the 25% that say… I don’t’ know. But they’re usually the 1-2 year coiners. Or maybe there would be 10% that said they never attended meetings at all and stayed sober, I guess I would argue then if they’re real alcoholics. I stayed dry for 6 years without working a program, but I’m an alcoholic so without a spiritual solution I did drink again.
I think treatment centers should start getting the patients out of the classrooms as well. I agree totally with you there Patrick! Rhetoric never satisfied the soul and I never got one ounce of serenity and sobriety from sitting around talking about it. Sure therapy is a part of my program but it was the meetings, steps, time, and working with other alcoholics and getting outside my self that created the real change.
I really agree with what Mary said about teaching treatment patients what AA is about. We’ve all heard “treatment is for discovery, AA is for recovery.” With that said, I’ve been through rehab three times and honestly, I needed all three of them. If there hadn’t been a place I could go to, where I knew what to expect, I might not have made it. Who knows, maybe I would have made it into AA’s doors again eventually, but I’ll never know. I did change everything after getting out my third time, I realized (finally) that it was my life and I was in charge. That I had to chase after my recovery just like I did that drunk or high.
Treatment centers only tell you about AA and urge you to go while your there and when you get out. But then why do most of the guys I work with right out of treatment seem surprised when I explain to them we’ll be doing the steps again. Their response is usually, “what? I just did one in treatment…. I’m fine.” I know treatment centers educate patients on how “treatment” isn’t a cure, but then why do so many patients come out and think that way? It took me three times to get it through my skull that I actually would have to do some work when I got out… and not just change a few things, but EVERYTHING!!
With all that said, there’s one thing about AA that I hope never changes, that no matter how many times we screw up, they’re always there with open loving arms. Now that’s a loving power greater than myself!
Excellent discussion here…thank you Mary, Brett, and Jared. Loved reading all of your thoughts and I do not think I disagree with anything that was said in particular.
The comments here sparked two new truths for me: One, that rehab was a vital part of my recovery. Heck, I lived in rehab for 20 months. It was vital to my sobriety. Without it, I don’t think I would be sober. And two, I think AA will eventually have to decide between change and fundamentalism. Maybe those are not quite the right words to describe it, but I think the idea is there. They will have to make a choice eventually about what direction they want to take.
Should be interesting. Thanks again everyone for the comments!
I go to AA , I have been sober awhile. The AA book is outdated and its resist to change is not atrractive specially to younger people. As far as newcomers not speaking that BS. We all need to talk. I have seen people with alot of time that don’t know anything. Its not about time anyway. Its about quality. That is me -quality soberity not based on anything except God. Not based on meetting and PS above to Jared your not going to die if you dont go to meettings everyday. There has to be a balance. I see so many unhealthy people in the rooms sure they quit drinking but they are obese, smoke and they ho around. I got sober to do the whole deal min-body-spirit. My soberity is unconditional. AA is a stepping stone. The solutions are in the steps. Meetings are for -maybe some relief. I cannot stand this I dont trust myself, my thinking got me here,,you got to be kidding. You better learn to trust yourself and love yourself. I am into empowerement and true freedom. I refuse to be in bondage of anything now i am clean and sober. My beliefs create my reality. I dont do fear base recovery.
I love your website ..
Right on-Dana !
I like your spirit,
and to be honest, I see a lot of the same things you do.
I like this saying, I believe it is Buddhist.
Body is Mind,
Mind is Spirit,
Spirit is Body.
The sentiment there is that the three are indistinguishable.
In my opinion the major shortcoming in AA is that there is way too much accent on spirituality at the expense of the rest of the total being.
The idea is reinforced in various parts of the big book.
Bill W. literally smoked himself to death .
Go figure.
There is a lot more to being a total human being than going to meetings, not drinking, and talking to God. (oh yeah, and drinking coffee).
Don’t get me wrong,
I love what AA has done for me and am very grateful for the person I have become by integrating th universal principles contained within the 12 steps into my life.
The steps are simply a catalyst that unveils a glimmer of the Mystery….
Of God…
Of You….
Of the Universe.
Here is another saying I just came up with.
God is You,
You are the Universe,
The Universe is God.
:o)
A life well lived is not measured in years sober… No.
It is measured one moment at a time.
I, certainly, will never again attend an AA meeting out of fear of drinking……
AA itself freed me from that bondage. And i find myself more and more aware of the fact that, for me, the things that really support the totality of my being often lie outside of AA.
AA still has it’s place in my life,
But it is only a stone in the road,
and not the road itself.
I like this site because it explores recovery from a non-traditional perspective.
And recovery is not one-size-fits all.
Each person is a unique miracle,
and that is a fact.
Brett.
iam a member of alcoholics anonymous and i would tend to belive that A.A. message of recovery has been diluted we are supposed to have a common problem (alcoholism) and a comon (solution) which is spiritual experience which we achive buy going through the twelve steps and following the plan of action which is outlined in the book (Alcoholics Anonymous) i have followed this plan of action found a solution and recovered . that being said i tried everything else under the sun tha didnt work and i wish i could say i heard this at a meeting in the begining but i did not i heard go to 90 meeetings in 90 days and i heard dont drink no matter what which in my experience was impossible. i had to have a psychic change and a spiritual awakening then i had to work with others. SOo its been my experience that sponsorship will fix A.A. any Prospect that works with me knows what the program is and i take them through the history and all 36 principles
Thanks for the great post. I think this is an important issue within recovery and bears some real thought. I believe it’s important to acknowledge that many people in AA meetings today are required to be there. They are in a court mandated program or have to take “report cards” back to their recovery program. This isn’t the case with every meeting, but some are very much tied in to particular recovery programs or centers and I think can be dangerous for those new to recovery. Having to attend meetings is very different from being there voluntarily and I think often can dilute the overall impact for others there. For the newcomer, I believe that it is important to seek out meetings with more of a mix of sobriety and not just those with mostly short-timers. I also think that it’s important to find a good mix of ages within a meeting to get a better perspective as to what the program is all about. Recovery programs are going to continue to send their patients to AA and that’s a good thing, but we do need to mindful of the impact.
Having been in and out of the various 12 step fellowships for years now; and in and out of various rehabilitation centers it is my opinion that both AA and the drug addiction treatment industry are in need of change. I disagree completely with the notion that old timers should dominate meetings in which newcomers are discouraged from talking because they have not memorized the big book and amassed long lengths of sober time. The majority of old timer AA’s that I have met are miserable, preachy, and intolerant to two growing demographics?/types of addicts/alcoholics; those with co-occurring mental disorders and addiction issues, and those with problems with drugs as well as alcohol. I have personally been shunned at meetings for having both of those issues, more often than not. AA like any other institution needs to be open to rather than resistant to change if it hopes to grow and flourish. The twelve steps, straight from the book, gone through with a sponsor are what got me sober this time. I have done this with a laundry list of serious mental illnesses (which often in AA are chalked up to “quack doctors pushing legal drugs”), and serious issues with drugs as well as alcohol (which I have been told have no place in a meeting for “real alcoholics”). I have found that fellowships like CA are more progressive, attractive and welcoming due to the lack of singleness of purpose (the most important difference between CA and AA is the destruction of that ego driven “singleness of purpose” taken to the extreme”. Addiction is addiction, the substance is irrelevant and the abuse of alcohol and or drugs are symptoms of the same underlying issue. I would personally like to see either an addition to the big book, or an entirely separate piece of literature addressing the modern advances in the medical/psychiatric fields in regards to the prevalence of mental disorders that require outside treatments among addicts, and other advances in the understanding of addiction that have come about since the 40’s and 50’s. I am not knocking the program by any means, but like anything run by human beings who are highly fallible, and often deathly afraid of change; AA will I’m pretty sure be forced to change in the near future, and hopefully its in the right ways and for the better. I think that regressing in the face of change is a horrible idea; i hope that wasn’t too much of an incoherent rant.
Any change, even a change for the better, is always accompanied by drawbacks and discomforts.
~Arnold Bennett~
The wish of helping more alcoholics than only one is really a great service that must be congratulated and respected. Nice sharing of great life saving information here.
My best wishes for more success.